In this episode, Anna Stokke explores what to do when a math program or education initiative doesn’t seem to work, but you’re told "research shows" that it does.

Drawing on her personal experience as both a parent and educator navigating “research shows” claims, Anna explains how parents, teachers, and advocates can ask for evidence, evaluate what counts as credible research, and respond when weak claims are presented with confidence. This episode is based on a presentation she gave at researchED Toronto in 2025.

Anna unpacks common tactics used to shut these conversations down, including shifting the burden of proof, overwhelming people with endless references, credential deflection, and denying that poor practice exists at all. She also offers practical advice for parents and educators on how to counter these tactics and spot and stop the spread of bad ideas in education.

This is an essential conversation for anyone trying to push for better practice in schools and navigate resistance along the way.

This episode is available in video at www.youtube.com/@chalktalk-stokke

A Substack version of this episode, written by Anna Stokke, as a guest writer for the Center for Educational Progress is available at https://www.educationprogress.org/p/what-to-do-when-research-shows-shuts

TIMESTAMPS [00:00:22] Introduction [00:01:35] What to do when something doesn’t feel right [00:02:48] Why Anna got involved in math education advocacy [00:06:38] Understanding the phrase “Research shows” in education [00:07:01] The Wildfire Effect: How bad ideas spread [00:09:25] How to ask for evidence [00:09:57] Burden of proof fallacy [00:11:04] Firehose Effect: Overwhelming you with articles [00:12:16] Overcoming the Firehose Effect [00:13:01] Credential deflection [00:14:59] Gaslighting: When you’re told the problem doesn’t exist [00:16:11] Evaluating the evidence [00:17:50] Fuzzy terms: Critical thinking, conceptual understanding, number sense, curiosity, differentiation [00:19:26] Become informed [00:18:36] Resources that can help [00:20:16] Final thoughts

RELEVANT PREVIOUS EPISODES Red flags in education research with Ben Solomon https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-cp5xt-156072c

Mailbag: Building Thinking Classrooms, number talks & more with Zach Groshell https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-stw9g-186807f

Modern relevance in the math curriculum with Brian Conrad https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-gek66-148967a

RELEVANT RESOURCES The Institute of Education Sciences Practice Guide https://ies.ed.gov/ncee/wwc/practiceguides

The National Mathematics Advisory Panel Final Report https://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/ED500486.pdf

Education Endowment Foundation https://educationendowmentfoundation.org.uk/

The National Center on Intensive Intervention https://intensiveintervention.org/

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

https://www.annastokke.com/transcripts/ep-70-transcript

MUSIC Intro & Outro: Funk Jazz Big Band - ColorFilmMusic

Website: www.annastokke.com FB: Chalk & Talk IG: @chalkandtalkpodcast Tiktok: @chalkandtalkpodcast X: @rastokke LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/anna-stokke-3a1b4c Bluesky: @rastokke.bsky.social

In this episode, Anna is joined by Professor Joanna Barbousas, Pro Vice-Chancellor of Education, Impact and Innovation, and Dean of the School of Education at La Trobe University in Australia.

Early in her career, Joanna noticed that many capable students struggled to access the curriculum due to gaps in foundational reading and language skills—an insight that has shaped her work ever since.

Now, she is focused on transforming teacher education to better prepare educators using evidence-based practices. Joanna shares how she led major changes at La Trobe University–redesigning programs to align with the science of learning and launching initiatives like the Science of Language and Reading Lab and the Science of Math Education Lab.

Anna and Joanna also explore why change is so difficult in universities and what it takes to lead meaningful reform.

This is a compelling conversation for anyone interested in improving education and translating research into practice.

This episode is also available in video at www.youtube.com/@chalktalk-stokke

SHORT COURSE La Trobe Short Course: Evidence-informed Mathematics Teaching – An Introduction https://shortcourses.latrobe.edu.au/evidence-informed-mathematics-teaching

ResearchED Calgary ResearchED Calgary registration: https://www.eventbrite.ca/e/researched-calgary-tickets-1984343272144

TIMESTAMPS

[00:00:22] Introduction [00:05:19] How Joanna’s early teaching shaped her leadership initiatives [00:06:51] How Joanna went from classroom teacher to Dean [00:10:31] The education landscape in Australia [00:15:38] Unpacking the Rowe report [00:19:23] The importance of teacher education reviews in Australian [00:24:51] The outcomes of the TEEP review

[00:30:08] Becoming the Dean of Education at La Trobe University [00:35:25] Reaction from faculty members [00:43:34] SOLAR Lab – How was it established? [00:49:17] Explaining the successful Nexus program [00:53:38] What Joanna learned about retaining teachers in hard-to-staff schools [00:55:17] Ideas for a national model [00:57:42] Why change matters: A message to leaders [01:00:26] Conclusion

RELEVANT PREVIOUS EPISODES Rebuilding teacher training through cognitive science with Jonas Linderoth https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-zwqb7-19e0dae

Reclaiming learning time to boost literacy and numeracy with Ross Fox https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-bpy4n-188c9c5

Using evidence in education with Pamela Snow https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-jc9mq-161ecac

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

https://www.annastokke.com/transcripts/ep-69-transcript

EPISODE RESOURCES

https://www.annastokke.com/resources/ep-69-resources

MUSIC

Intro & Outro: Funk Jazz Big Band - ColorFilmMusic

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IG: @chalkandtalkpodcast Tiktok: @chalkandtalkpodcast

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Bluesky: @rastokke.bsky.social

In this episode, Anna is joined by Dr. Montserrat (Montse) Gomendio, a former Secretary of State for Education in Spain. Montse is also a former Deputy Director of Education for the OECD, the international organization that administers the PISA test. Drawing on global data, including from PISA, Montse explains why some education systems consistently perform well while others struggle to improve.

Montse discusses the three key drivers of effective education systems: teacher quality, a knowledge-rich curriculum, and strong assessments aligned with that curriculum. Anna and Montse discuss what large-scale international assessments like PISA can (and can’t) tell us. The conversation also explores why education reform is so difficult to implement, what high-performing systems right like those in East Asia and Estonia get right, and whether Finland’s reputation as a model system is supported by evidence.

This is a fascinating conversation that will appeal to educators, policymakers, and anyone interested in what actually drives improvement in education systems.

This episode is also available in video at www.youtube.com/@chalktalk-stokke

MONTSERRAT GOMENDIO’S BOOK (OPEN ACCESS) Dire Straits-Education Reforms: Ideology, Vested Interests and Evidence: https://www.openbookpublishers.com/books/10.11647/obp.0332

SHORT COURSE La Trobe Short Course: Evidence-informed Mathematics Teaching – An Introduction https://shortcourses.latrobe.edu.au/evidence-informed-mathematics-teaching

ResearchED Calgary ResearchED Calgary registration: https://www.eventbrite.ca/e/researched-calgary-tickets-1984343272144

TIMESTAMPS

[00:00:22] Introduction [00:04:55] The role of Deputy Director of Education at the OCED [00:06:21] What is the purpose of PISA? [00:07:29] How is PISA different from TIMSS or PIRLS? [00:12:54] What is an appropriate definition of equity? [00:15:06] Measures that improve educational equity [00:19:57] The perplexing narrative about Finland as a top performer [00:28:42] Why do East Asian countries perform so well? [00:33:00] The importance of content knowledge [00:36:06] Misleading recommendations from the OECD [00:37:16] After-school tutoring in East Asian countries [00:41:36] Why implementation in different countries can be difficult: Latin America [00:46:18] Reducing class size: popular and expensive, but ineffective [00:48:08] What makes an effective teacher? [00:52:01] A look at Estonia’s education system [00:54:14] Why is it so hard to implement reforms even when they are evidence-based? [01:02:23] Preventing the reversal of good education policies [01:06:31] What are the main components that make an effective education system?

RELEVANT PREVIOUS EPISODES

When a mathematician became education minister: Nuno Crato on transforming education https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-pxzyk-19b773f

Balanced literacy didn’t work—will balanced math? https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-usvqw-1962107

From decline to top rankings: How England transformed education with Nick Gibb https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-zps9p-18c1e97

Understanding math reform ideology with Tom Loveless https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-7ih4c-15dbf9a

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

https://www.annastokke.com/transcripts/ep-68-transcript

MUSIC

Intro & Outro: Funk Jazz Big Band - ColorFilmMusic

Website: www.annastokke.com

FB: Chalk & Talk

IG: @chalkandtalkpodcast Tiktok: @chalkandtalkpodcast

X: @rastokke

LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/anna-stokke-3a1b4c

Bluesky: @rastokke.bsky.social